American bully dogs bred as lovers, not fighters

This is really the same with Dobermans, Originally bred to be a personal protection companion.. The AKC has done a number to these dogs.. Bred primarily for show in the US, anymore its become next to impossable to find an American Doberman Pinscher with nerve.. Well most are actually sound to a degree. But many do actually bite out of fear as opposed to naturally understanding when its ok to bite and when it isnt..

In Europe the Dobermanns problem generally arnt quite as noticeable, and you are more likly to find a good working candidate from more European lines then you ever will from an American Doberman.. But the fact that a GSD is still a better choice for working sports then a Doberman from either the US or abroad is a bit disturbing to me.. GSD being a herding dog where the Doberman is supposed to be bred for PP..

Of course non of this has to do with fighting, but it does relate to breeding and how breeding a purebred dog to do anything other then what it was bred from conception to do.. Will ultimately produce an unsound dog.. esp over time.. My opinion is that breeding a Doberman to be anything other then a PP companion, produces dogs with week nerves and i think to some degree the dog is internally confused, causing more problems then they solve.. IMO

That is the best argument some of the APBT "purists" have given me. But what if the original purpose of the breed is illegal and (many would say) barbaric and cruel? That is the dilemma that to me screams for some kind of very well defined alternative.

Even for the APBT enthusiast who does not think dogfighting is cruel, it is still illegal. But there they also depart ... flat out saying they rely on others who break the law to provide them with game tested or game bred APBT's.

I can understand where you are coming from buddysmom and i certainly dont have the answer. This is another great example of how the breed creates more confusion then answers for me personally. I suppose the best answer would be in the breeders hands.. Unfortunately i think the ones best suited to have a hand in changing this would be the least likely to actually try it.. Also im sure it would take several generations to see any significant changes in just one line.. And im still not sure if the end result would be sound puppies.. Id be more prone to believe breeding a Bulldog to be a Bulldog is the preferred way to go about having a solid well rounded dog..

I also think the biggest problem the Bully breeds face today is the simple fact they are literally a dime a dozen, making breeding by uneducated idiots easier then baking a cake.. This is in my opinion where the bad rap Pit Bulls face today is coming from. And this is no doubt where the majority of unsound Pit Bulls are coming from..

i think the original concept for the basis of the Am Bully was to create a bull dog "type" of dog, i.e., in looks, stature, muscle definition, etc. but with the intent to fashion, or devise a "bull dog type" minus the D.A. if i am not mistaken that was its original intent=bull dog type minus the aggression. supposedly to be wonderful with people AND dogs. however, in the quest to create yet anothet bull dog type, (sigh) not enuff (imo) research was put into its creation. in a general sense, they are a breed riddled with health problems from respitory: most are very short winded, and have great difficulty both breathing in and adjusting to warmer temperatures. their legs are very short in proportion to their weight. chest, head and neck are essentially 'over-sized', therefore joint problems are also common with them, along with many having and being bred with bowed legs, with a blantant disregard concerning this when it comes to breeeding, hence offspring.
but like most everything, money became the motivator and unscupulous Am Bully breeders were a dime a dozen, as supply had to meet the demand and the Am Bully just sorta "took off"! "Breeders" called them APBT's or pit bulls and everyone and their brother wanted one! i'll equate it to when the "blue" pit bull became "fashionable". initially they were "rare and unique" and pups were selling for $1,500, papered or not. it was a fashion. same as the AB~at first they were new and people's curiosity peaked. it was the "in thing" to own this "new line of pit bull".
i'm seriously glad their name has been has become their own and most now know they are NOT (thank you, God) APBT's. and so, in meeting the demands of the public, the original thought/intent of the breed fell to the way-side and the original intent of the breed: to create a non-aggressive, human and dog-wise, dog became second once all the money started pouring in. sad really. i think the dogs even look pathetic. and then to bout, owners slap on those stupid, spikey collars, wraps chains around them and have them waddle besides them down the street looking all bad ass and what not. they, to me are a breed that was/is "too much too quick. little long term thinking went into their conception, imo. there again, all to suit the whims of man.

as far as APBT's and game dogs, i'll go on a limb and say that imo gameness can only be tested in one way, and that is to match two dogs of equal weight and stature against each other. to have two canine "gladiators" opposing one another to see if either will quit or not. i feel the afore was the original premise of that term originally meant and entailed, and i personally still hold that to be true. imo, you can test a dogs' drive and determination by the ways previously mentioned: hog hunting, weight pulling, etc. but that, to me, does not test for gameness. in the [] is, for me, the tried, true, and only method. i also agree that some dogs, yes, DO love to fight. people say you have to train them to fight. i say you're conditioning them for the fight. whether or not they want to fight is unique to each dog, based, in part on how/how much their genetics has played a part. that's why some are "cold" or "curs" and some are "hot" or, have that desire. each will let the owner and handler know if it's a go or a no.
people might say to test a game bred APBT is cruel and unjust, while enthusiasts will say they are keeping the breed true to its original form/roots and are therefore preserving it based on its original purpose.
guess your perspective/opinion just depends on which side of the fence you choose to stand on.

Ok now on to my next question (I have many ). I was told that the only way to know if you have a good sound dog (APBT) is to match it. That in itself made no sense to me. IMO I don't think matching a dog makes or break if it is sound. Thoughts?

I guess what I'm getting at is I don't feel that the only thing the breed is good for is fighting as I've read elsewhere. I think they are extremely athletic and versatile and since dog fighting is illegal I feel there are other avenues for the breed.

match it to prove if it's sound? nah, not imo. a dog is sound if he/she has proved to be mentally stable and/or secure. and i don't think gameness has anything to do with a dog being sound. game testing will proove if a dog will quit or continue.
as far as other things for the breed, hell yeah, there's lots they can still do, besides being in the []. proponents will say we're doing nothing to furthur the future of the gamebred APBT in keeping it true to its original roots/purpose. and maybe we're not. but truth is, we may have a dog bred off of game lines, but that
doesn't mean the dog is gunna game and imo, most aren't.
and yup, since most don't wanna do the time, they can either take their dogs to countries where matching is still legal to find/proove their gameness, do it low key and take the chance, or, find alternative ways to feed their (the dog's) drive and working abilities.
for the majority of APBT owners, today, i would say most don't and won't test and for sure have sought other avenues for the breed.

Thanks for answering my questions pretty much your answers confirmed my thoughts. The person who thought they were teaching me about bulldogs have no idea what they are talking about and I figured that out pretty quickly. I'm still very new to the breed in mine are only 2 years old and have had them 2 years come the middle of February. I love to listen and learn from those who really do know and understand the breed and not talking out the side of their necks. This has been a great thread!

you're very welcome. remember, tho, that they are just my opinions and like all things, people will have varying opinions on my replies, as well. but i've been studying this breed, pretty much ALL aspects of them for many eyars, like seriously studying, so i am happy to share and pass on what i have learned. i think so, too= i LOVE reading and talking about bull dogs. it's almost become, well, not an obscession, but close! and i've been blessed to have some key support and a great network of friends, including Mr. Colby=he has helped me tremendously and has always been honest and upfront. he 's great about me just shooting up for a visit, or me shooting him an email or phone call. has the patience of a saint! cuz i can sure bug the guy!!! in fact, in/when reading Jesse's (OldTimers's) replies, almost all have mimmicked/mirrored what Lou has to say, so we are lucky to have Jesse, here as well~a wealth of knowledge at our finger tips.
agreed: this has been a wonderful thread! great input!.

Bulldogs have sort of become my obsession as well haha. I seriously studied the breed right when I got my mutt babies. I can't tell you how much I read and read and well READ haha! I like to think I'm pretty smart and have good common sense about things that is why I had to drop the wanna be from my pool of knowledge. That is awesome Mr. Colby is one of your network of friends! So lucky I've finally stumbled upon the right place to seek and gain the knowledge I've been looking for and affirm my thoughts and what I've already picked up. Can't thank you Sue and Jesse enough. ( I prefer the knowledge of the old schoolers vs. the wanna be ). I'm not a fan of dog fighting but I definitely respect the breeds history and the "old" way things were done.

yeah, he's one cool guy. last time i was up he showed me how he tags chicks=he's into birds as well, and then how to catalogue them. was cool, (almost surreal) stitting with 'the legend' tagging chicks and talking dogs in his back yard. his wife's a doll, as well. and ANYtime. jesse can SMOKE me with his knowldege, but what lil i know, i'm happy to share with you~my pleasure. and for sure, there's a whole lotta wanna bes~is why Lou said he'd never join a forum="is filled with too many" is what he said to me!
and i too, respect their history and can see why people wish to see its future. i don't partake, but i understand their desire.

Well the American Bully is what you get when you breed away from what the American Pitbull Terrier is. There is really no way to breed away from something and keep the same dog, It just can not be done. Like Von Doom said you see this with show dogs and working dogs, I honestly can't think of a better example than the German Shepherd. Nobody in their right mind would want a German Shepherd that had a rear end like them show dogs have.

And just because something is deemed "illegal" doesn't mean it is the right thing, The courts and powers that be for the most part are not fit to look after their own households let alone an entire nation. We see this every day with the assault against Christianity, Firearms and other core American values. And people that find it cruel usually fall into the same categories, They either haven't seen the right way it is done or they are just following along with what the government and the animal welfare folks have to say about it.

So to answer both your questions and replies there is really no way to breed away from what the bulldog is and in doing so we already have the end result which is the current American Bully.
Added: Jan 5, 2011 at 12:54 AM

I don't think so either, A dogs gameness doesn't make a dog any more or less sound.

I give you Bullyson and Chinaman as prime examples.

Another explanation from Wikipedia of gameness.

Game or Gameness is a quality of fighting dogs or working terriers that are selectively bred and conditioned from a very early age to develop traits of eagerness despite the threat of substantive injury. Dogs displaying this trait can also be described as persevering, ready and willing, full of fight, spirited, or plucky.

I guess what I'm trying to understand is in my thinking can you not still breed game bred dogs but just not match them but use them still for hunting, weight pull, mill races, hang time and other avenues and the dogs still retain their drive and willingness to succeed (I guess in time the dogs would loose their "gameness" associated with matching) but can you not still have a dog with "traits of eagerness despite the threat of substantive injury like with bear, hog or other game hunting. Is that not something enthusiast are willing to do considering it has been deemed illegal to match them. I know "gameness" is a favored trait by some but a lot of dogs today aren't even matched and I feel still are unlike any other breed in their willingness to succeed and athleticism. Just trying to understand why you can't still have the game bred lines of APBTs without matching them.

As far as the American Bully dogs. The goal was not only to create the ultimate companion they all together were creating a completely different look (and the sheer fact they were going for a look IMO is where this breed went wrong).

"We wanted to produce heavier built dogs with heavy bone structure. More of the Bullier look."

"We also wanted a hard look, a head that was bricked in shaped with a hard chiseled look, and short blocky muzzle. Size was important and we bred to create larger harder looking heads. Our concept was breed to produce females that look like males; hence one of our quotes, "The place where females out do other kennels males.""

http://www.razorsedgeinc.com/info.html

Sure you ca breed game lines and use them for hunting and that, Now the problem I have with that quote from Wikipedia is that they say they are conditioned from an early age to develop gameness. This can not be done, You can not train a dog to be game and no amount of training will make a dog game or make a dog not game. Either the dog is game or it is not, Conditioning is a exercise program to prepare the dogs body to go the distance and such when it came time for a fight.
Added: Jan 6, 2011 4:25 AM

Yep,

There are so many things wrong with them but I don't really want to go and make a big list and possibly start a big to do since this is an all breed forum that consists of good folks and it is peaceful. But if you look on some bulldog sites you can read all about what is wrong with them and things of that nature, Or we can talk in private and I can fill you in on what I think is wrong with them.

I think this is a very good and positive idea and perhaps those in the APBT world should put their heads together to brainstorm a "performance" test that could display the "gameness" that is part and parcel of the heart and character of the breed and its original intention. I am not for dog fighting, but I am also not for having any dog other than a police dog chase and bring down a fleeing criminal. Yet the working dog world seems to have developed trials that have test componets that demonstrate the dogs abililities that the breed was bred to use as its job.

It would seem to me that a trialing test with different phases could be developed withought having the dog actually fight. I am a country girl and have been on many a coon and wild boar hunt - however in these PC times theres no way that any organization would blessm condone nor sponsor a performance test for gameness that had them facing off with a pig, much less a wild boar - and not cause I don't think it would be a fair fight - wild boars have game themselves and when cornered extremely dangerous.

However if those that love the breed and want to protect its character, to me it would be beneficial to have some performance trial that could demonstrate that the " game character" was controllable by a handler, and that in the proper hands it could be turned on and off.

Just some random thoughts and I think establishing this type of test could be a postive impression for the breed.

With all due respect, the AmBully was NOT an attempt to stay as true to the APBT as possible. It was an attempt to create an entirely different breed, and that's what you got, a DIFFERENT breed (or rather, hodgepodge for the most part).

There has been no serious effort to keep the APBT breed alive without dogfighting. THAT would take effort, creativity, and above all a willingness to let go of the sport. And in the true APBT community that is not going to happen because the sport and the dogs are considered one and the same. Illegal or not (and I agree legality is not the issue).

As I said that is what you get when you try and breed away from what the American Pitbull Terrier is, It can not be done.

You can't go and try to breed an APBT away from everything it is and still have an APBT, That was tried and the end result was the American Bully.

That's my whole point is they tried to breed AWAY from the APBT, so that's what they got.

But I hear all the time that, if you take away the dogfighting in the breeding program you will end up with the American Bully. That is not what was done so that theory is bunk. In creating the AmBully they did a LOT more than just eliminate actual dogfighting in determining breeding prospects. They attempted to take away the DA for example, and to go for a "different look" for another example.

Well then, How does one take away the core of the bulldog?

To breed away from what the bulldog is means you no longer have an APBT.

in their attempts to create the Am Bully as we know it, breeders, remember, still infused the desired traits of the UKC APBT with those of the AKC Am Staff to "create" this 'breed'. then they tweeked them abit and created their own standards. so, in incorporating and infusing the traits of both, and both still being 'pit bulls', you can only breed so far away. which is why there's still alot of confusion with the general public in them thinking they're pit bulls: too many similar traits. as said before, so long as people realize (and more and more are) that the APBT and the AM Bully are not one in the same, and are two different breeds of dogs, i'm happy with that. and i truly hope more and more people "get it".
another difference: Am Bullies are bred to be protective of their people and property, therefore make pretty good watch and guard dogs, while the APBT would most likely be deemed "dangerous" if it showed signs of a protective or guarding nature and has deliberately been bred to be human friendly, not protective. i'm glad the Am Bullies are less prone to DA, but not glad for what many of them endure healh-wise.
Added: Jan 9, 2011 3:09 AM

if you remove its core, imo, you remove, essentially, it.
"To breed away from what the bulldog is means you no longer have an APBT."
i think so, too.