American bully dogs bred as lovers, not fighters

American bully dogs bred as lovers, not fighters
Chip Johnson
San Francisco Chronicle August 24, 2010 04:00 AM
Tuesday, August 24, 2010




19 .21 ..Courtesy Martinelli Family
The American bully dog, though strong, is bred to have a gentle nature.

For many big-city dwellers, including me, the mere presence of a pit bull on the street sounds the alarm bell and raises the specter of potential danger at hand.

Because ever since the rise in popularity of the short-haired, broad-chested dogs in the mid-1980s, there has been incident upon incident of violence - and death - associated with the breed.

Over the years, ownership of the dogs has become synonymous with street toughs, dog-fighting cliques and negative stereotypes.

Geno Martinelli, a Castro Valley breeder, trainer and owner, is on a journey to turn around that image. His Boss Hogg Bully Kennel breeds American bully dogs, a mix created in 2004 from the American pit bull terrier and Staffordshire terrier lines. The dogs essentially look like pit bulls on steroids - but, Martinelli says, without any viciousness.

Martinelli is hoping that a Sept. 4 public dog show at California State University East Bay in Hayward will help to reverse the long-standing perception that the dogs are inherently aggressive and dangerous.

He expects a couple of hundred members of the American Bully Kennel Club to take part in a show competition that will also include English and French bulldogs and Staffordshire pits. Trophies will be awarded for best in class and best in show.

The bully breed was established in 2004 with the express desire to train the aggressive nature out of the animals and re-establish them among the dog breeds that make safe, secure, domesticated pets.

"We're trying to breed all of the fight and all of the game out of them," said Martinelli, who has bred more than half a dozen litters of the dogs.

Only well-behaved dogs are eligible for breeding, and dogs that repeatedly exhibit aggressive behavior are put down, he said.

On more than one occasion, Martinelli said he's had to shield his own dog, Poison, an 11-month old bully, from more aggressive dogs because she will not fight back.

"She's been bred that way, and I make sure there are no dogs that will challenge her when I take her to the park," he said.

Poison was named best in show at a bully dog competition at the Solano County Fair last month. She actually made friends with a potbelly pig, Martinelli said.

Ironically, Martinelli's comments Monday were made outside the Oakland Animal Shelter as he watched two pit bulls go after each other until animal control officers pulled them apart.

There are more than 50,000 bully dogs registered with the American Bully Kennel Club, a Southern California organization with members all over the world.

"In essence, (bully dogs) are a cosmetic breed," said Charles May, president of the kennel association. It may look like an impressive animal with muscles on top of muscles, but that's really not a true reflection of the breed's nature, he said.

"We hold these events all over the country to educate the public," May said. "We try to show the general public that we can create a show environment and that despite our dogs' looks, they can be as docile and friendly as the next dog," he added.

While that may be the case, Martinelli, who also works as an Oakland city building inspector, could not find a venue in Oakland that would host a dog show that included pit bulls or any connected breeds.

"We tried to put on a show in Oakland, but there were a lot of problems with getting the right park, and there were concerns because of the recent stories of people being attacked and killed," he said.

It's not as if Martinelli doesn't understand those concerns.

In his work around Oakland, he's encountered many cases of animal abuse and is among the first to admit the dangers associated with a dog trained to exhibit its ferocious nature.

"If they are raised or bred in the wrong way, then yeah, they can be very dangerous," he said. "We want as much attention as we can get to show another side of these dogs."

Chip Johnson's column appears in the Chronicle on Tuesday and Friday. E-mail him at chjohnson@sfchronicle.com.

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/08/23/BAQ41F26IL.DTL#ixzz0xZ26veEx

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/08/23/BAQ41F26IL.DTL

Well first the APBT would have to be vicious for this story to actually mean something.

And that is not directed at you Debbie but the author of this article.

Do you think this is what the person was meaning by "vicious" ??
Thanks Old Timer...
I just post the news...I don't write it.

I'm glad you put this article up Debbie. As many of you know, I own an AmBully (though no where near overdone like the AmBullies you see today) and she's a great dog, but the author's statements irk me. For one, many AmBullies are more than just APBT and AmStaff and to say otherwise is not true. For two, many of these dogs are very wrong genetically...being bred for looks and money, rather than physical health and mental soundness. For three, to say that these dogs are lovers, not fighters, is not always true...many can be DA and it's misleading to tout otherwise (especially with the classic type AmBully 'cause they're not bred as "far away" from the foundation breeds as others). The same precautions should be taken with them around other dogs, just to be on the safe side. My AmBully will not start a fight, but she can be really pissy with a dog that is looking to start one and will not back down. Furthermore, APBT are not vicious or dangerous either (they may be DA, but I don't consider that vicious or dangerous), and it's upsetting someone would state something like that when the APBT is suppose to be part of the AmBully's foundation. It's a total crock too, that only well behaved AmBully's are bred and those that aren't are culled...that may be true for the author's dogs, but it certainly isn't for the BYBs (which run rampant in this breed) and some others. Another thing is that AmBullies, with all the indiscriminate breeding behind these dogs, are more prone to be HA than an APBT, so to say that they have no viciousness is a bunch of bull. I think that educating the public that AmBullies, looked at by the public as pit bulls, are not the monsters the media paints them to be is great, but geez, don't throw the APBT under the bus in doing so (which, to me, sounds kinda like what's been said in this article, but just not in those exact words). Another thing that rubs me the wrong way is the promoting of this breed. These dogs are WAY too popular and it has lead to the destruction of their health (mentally and physically). I think they should all get their houses in order, before promoting this breed (though I don't like to see any breed overly promoted 'cause I feel that popularity usually leads to a good breed being messed up).

Okay, I'm stepping off my soapbox now, lol!

Probably,

A lot of folks mistake a dog wanting to fight with another dog with the dog being vicious overall. Your gamebred dog is the most stable dog around due to the strict breeding behind them, Since they were created they walked a tight line with no room for error. Now a lot of folks bred dogs they shouldn't have and they have done things the way they shouldn't be done and this led to a good bit of screwballs running around but your true bulldogs bred by good people don't have a mean bone in their body when it comes to folks.

Whoever the author of this article was is a very misinformed individual whose main objective is to move out more of these bully dogs...Or at least that is how it seems to me.

But I figured I would put that on there because after I posted it it looked like I was saying it to you, And I said to myself this woman is going to think I have a problem with her.

I think the author was being misinformed by the breeder he interviewed.

Nooooo......I would never think that.

Oh so it was the breeder feeding the author a big story, Well that about sums it up then.

I've gone to a couple American Bully dog shows. Some of those dogs were insanely DA and scared the crap out of my poor dogs and me due to having poor handlers. Some of those dogs are beast and in the worst kind of way. What really pissed me off is the jerks who had the DA dogs and thought it was cute and did nothing to really control them. Poor Parker & Oreo just didn't know what to think about dogs trying to come after them. So far my dogs love other dogs but not so much other dogs always loving them . Poor Parker wants to play so bad that he just doesn't even pay attention when a dog is snarling at him sometimes.

Honest question, that i think i know the answer to, in short that answer would be staying true to the breed. But im sure there is more to it then simply that.. What practical purpose does a game bred Pit Bull actually serve in this day and age? Few people have it, more people want it, but why?

I ask because i sincerely don't know.. Im not a fan of the breed myself (no offense to anyone i just have other preferences.) So my expertise on dogs lies in another breed.

I ask the same question VonDoom but in the sense that dog fighting is illegal and furthermore for those who still participate by scratching or even matching their own dogs. I own APBTs but mine would definitely be considered curs since they love other dogs. It's not even that I'm not a fan of the breed but I keep reading how people are getting busted for dog fighting (here in the south) and know there are those with game bred dogs that do scratch/ match them. I just honestly don't see the point or know why in this day and age to scratch/ match dogs with dog fighting being illegal. When I did ask that question to someone who obviously very much still believed in scratching/ matching dogs their response was in order to have a good dog. So my next question is what the hell is a good APBT I don't think one that will fight is a good dog versus one who won't.

I don't have any problem with game bred dogs just a problem with those who still scratch/ match them I just don't see any point in that.

Well I have always had gamedogs and always will, For me it is to keep the dog true to it's heritage. I feel like I would be doing a disservice to the breed, Myself and my family who started this if I was to breed dogs that didn't meet the requirements of a bulldog.

Now a dog being a fool doesn't equate to the dog being game, In fact I didn't like a real showy dog when I was picking one. I have dogs that would inhale another bulldog or that but could be trusted around small dogs and pups, Very few people actually know what a true gamedog is because they have never seen it. But if a dog liked to chase down pups or tiny dogs (Which my train of thought is they thought they were pups) in my eyes that dog is a cur. I always liked a smart dog that knew when it was time for business and when it was time to just be a dog (And yes they did know the difference).

Most folks don't truly know what a gamedog is and they don't truly know what a match was about, It was not the stuff you hear about on the news now a days and it was not like what Michael Vick did. I can elaborate if anyone wishes to know about it but I don't want to elaborate and type up a lot of stuff if folks don't wish to hear about it.

So if anyone wants to know about how it really was with the men and dogs you often read about in bulldog books just ask away and I will answer all that I can for you.

I have many questions!

And yes I agree matching was not the stuff you hear about on the news now a day and definitely not what Micheal Vick did. I have read and researched to educate myself on the topic but have definitely wanted to talk to someone who truly knew what the heck they were talking about because they lived it. My personal sources for those who think they know have not been the greatest as one was a 20 something year old who just thought they knew everything bulldog and the other what I consider a want to be dog man (no offense to either) just that they really didn't explain it like how I envisioned how it was done the old way (which was not the crap you see today) or just flat out wouldn't really talk about it.

Hmmm so where do I even start with questions. I do know after looking into the breed when I inherited mine was that all the old timey dogs looked amazing and even though matched were not shredded/ torn and scarred up to hell and back (that was the obvious sign things were done very different that what you see now).
Added: Dec 28, 2010 at 4:33 AM

I've definitely got a pair of curs. Parker definitely thinks he's a pup. He was playing with a chihuahua today and Oreo loves small dogs as well. But I love my curs. They are still young though as they just turned 2. So maybe later they won't be so playful?

Here are a few photos of my silly dogs in action taken Dec. 17.

I have a couple comments to add - First on the article - IMHO these are nothing more than designer dogs - They are not a recognized breed by AKC but are a result of the crossing of two different breeds of dog although apparently closely related. Once bred do they breed true???

You can't base the temperament of a breed on one female who will not fight even if attacked.

I was at least glad to read something positive about "pit bulls" even if it was way off base.

Second I would like an description or explanation of what the scratch/match was that did not involve the dogs fighting and someone getting hurt.

Thanks.

I am glad you GOT on your soapbox because that was a dang fine post. I am also glad Debbie posted the article, even though it is depressing it is important to know all of the misconceptions out there.

Well said Old Timer.. I was on the right track concerning most of what you said.. And dont personally see anything wrong with staying true to the breed.. Then i was reading on to other posts and comments.. and realized that although i knew this it has never truly clicked that i have been short skirting my own education in disregarding the simple term "Pit Bull: when in fact im actually lumping all bully breeds together. Having a hard time making sense of all things relating to Pit Bulls..

Truth is when it comes to any bully breed, its easy to get confused, first being the term Pit Bull, that most of us understand isnt a breed but more a description.. When studying Dobermans, your only dealing with one breed, with a cpl different standards.. The breed is one but there are significant differences in standard depending on what part of the world the dog is bred in..

I found the only thing confusing about understanding the essence of the Doberman breed is understanding where it was bred or what it was bred for.. A broad and simple example would be as follows:
American Doberman Pinscher: Bred for show.. (looks are in the eye of the beholder here)
European Dobermann: Bred to work and stay true to the Dogs original function.. (Personal Protection)

Rarely have the two ever been mixed successfully. (in my opinion) i could also elaborate but the more i type the more i open myself up to Misunderstandings..

Anyways what im saying is most my ignorance towards the Bully breeds is the simple fact is its difficult to find a good place to start.. Unless you start that journey from its roots.. But even then its branches off in so many different directions so fast that nothing except real dedication in education, can clear up the confusion created from the multiple different directions the breed started from.. There are almost as many "Types" as there are owners, To an outsiders prospective..

Well I would be happy to answer what I can and inform folks of how matches were, So long as folks don't get out of hand and the staff and that don't have any objections. If they say they aren't comfortable with it then I have to respect their wishes, And everything will be from a purely historical standpoint meaning everything I will talk about will have taken place before that animal welfare act.

A lot of people though that haunt them bulldog forums give pretty shaky information at best because they haven't been taught, They don't want to ask questions because they want everyone to think they know it all or they really do think what they are talking about is the gospel truth. Most spend their time researching on other forums learning from bigger bullshiters than they are and this is how bad information gets out and about.

But as far as dogs back years ago not being scarred up real bad, There are several who were VERY chewed up looking. Wasn't due to lack of after care or that but it was just they had been matched and went the distance and no matter what they just kept going. Zebo was a good example of this, But there is a difference in the way Dogmen did things and the way punks do things. When I took mine in or handled dogs I had two very large tackle boxes that were my doctor bags, And I made sure I knew how to work on them because I owed it to them. Nothing bothered me more than people who thought they had the right to match a dog but didn't know the first thing about caring for them.

Now what I meant by dogs chasing pups down or little dogs they thought were pups was they weren't playing with them but they would hunt them down and kill them. These type of dogs were unstable in my opinion and had no place on my yard, It was not a trait that I had any tolerance for especially pups. There have been instances of accidental kennel fights on other yards where pups have gotten out and met their end when they stumbled into a chain spot. Now also because a dog is game doesn't mean he is fight crazy, I know of several good gamedogs that were very uninterested in other dogs outside of the pit and to the untrained eye they would think they were the biggest curs on the face of the earth. Then some were fine with other dogs but not with other bulldogs, This is where the statement "Never trust your bulldog not to fight" comes into play. You always have to be ready and actually know how to separate two dogs when a fight happens. I am hoping you have some breaksticks and know how to use them and always have one handy when they are out running around, A good habit to get yourself into is whenever your going to be around the dogs is to tuck a breakstick in your pocket. Your dogs could turn on a little later or they just may be cold, But I have seen many a cold dog get into a nasty scrap so you still need to be real vigilant. Also they can turn on later in life, I once sat on a dog till he was 5 years old and he turned out to be one of the best dogs I had the privilege of handling.

I have a question for ya Old Timer. I've gotten in debates with people on other forums in the past over my question (which I'll ask in a minute), trying to wrap my mind around what they meant, but I never really completely understood even after it being explained to me and I'd like to understand what these people were talking about. I know these people never knew how things really were, so I wanted to ask someone who did. What I'm talking about is, I've heard people say that the pit dogs loved to fight. It didn't make sense to me, as it seemed to me that love was a human emotion put on the dog's desire to do it, but these people disagreed with me. These same people would compare the love of a dog to fight, to the love of an MMA fighter to fight, or a boxer to box, and I didn't think that it could be compared 'cause dogs don't think like humans do. I feel that humans do certain things because they love to do it, but with dogs it's more instinct or what's bred into them. My thinking is that a dog could be bred for the "desire" to fight, just as, let's say, Border Collies were bred to herd, Labs were bred to retrieve, Dachshunds were bred to flush out badgers, and therefore, these breeds have a desire to do these things. I've always felt that the dogs purported to love to fight, just had the drive in them to do what they were bred for, not that they actually loved what they were doing in a human sense. So my question is, do you think that these dogs actually loved to do it, or was it a drive to do what they were bred to do?

Thanks for asking that RubySlippers. I have also been told/ heard that the dogs "loved" to fight and that just didn't make sense to me either.
Added: Dec 29, 2010 at 9:54 AM

I actually know of someone who has a dog that does that exact thing. Will chase down a pup and kill it. They feel their dog is a fine example of what a bulldog is

Well actually they throughly enjoyed it, A good bulldog enjoys nothing more than a good scrap and they will go to the very end. You can't train them to fight, You can't train them to keep going back time and time again until they just flat can not do it anymore. They equated like I would to with labs and such.

When I handled a dog you could see it in their eyes that they loved it, You seen their tales going like they were doing their favorite activity. They would scream with anticipation at times and scream and strain to get back at it when it came time to face them off again. These dogs are unlike any other dogs in the world including other dogs that are bred to fight, It is hard for people to understand without actually seeing it but they do in fact love to fight.
Added: Dec 30, 2010 at 10:43 PM

Very poor example in my opinion, There have been bulldogs over the years that have had a history of it but never on my yard.

A lot of fools equate any sort of aggression or that as being a sign of a "true bulldog" even if they come back a hand short during feeding time.